Fireside chat featuring Gaurav Tiwari, founder of sutradhar

This is an auto-transcribed version of the interview. You can watch all the protalks series here

professionals from different fields, different roles fly different kinds of professionals.

The idea is that we get to learn from their journey, their experiences, successes, failures, etc. That’s why we are doing this. And so if you are watching it live

on non superpro, or on YouTube or LinkedIn, wherever, yes, you can drop in your questions in the comment or chat. And if you’re watching the recorded version, yes, you can still drop in your questions in the in the comment? Yes. And

yeah, we also a way for you to connect with our guests. So we will be sharing their super pro page link. So yes, in case you want to reach out to them, you will be able to reach out to them using the super appropriately. cool with that. So the guests that I have today with me, we share the same first name. Yes, he’s

lovely as well as safe. Yeah. And

I must say that yes.

I have this this episode is special for me, because

I got I was.

It’s not. So yeah, we have we have come to almost two decades. knowing each other. Yeah. Genius. Genius. Yeah. And, yes, we have been friends and

where we have been hostile mate. I’ve done a lot of things or Yes, we share quite

bad memories as well, we have together so there’s this special and Yes, today we are going to cover his journey as well as now that he is

his veering the entrepreneur hat, we will get to know what prompted him to do that and what happened? Yes. Okay, I’ll stop talking over to you Gara for a short introduction, then we’ll jump into journey. So, Hi everyone,

my name is Gaurav Tiwari. And as you would have already know understood from the introduction that me and Goro three party both of us were batchmates in IIT Bombay. So, we are 2001 batch and graduated in 2005. And after that I had a good career in banking and FinTech and now I am starting my own venture called sutra and we will we will talk more about the both the journeys

hopefully in this session with DT

okay. So, you you already mentioned about the IIT Bombay, but I will start the journey

before that. So before I do how our So tell us about

which part of the world you born in, and how was your childhood? Okay, so where I was born in you can’t even find on Google Maps. It’s such a small village in yupi. It’s called moussaka. I mean, probably 3000 would be the total population of the village. Then

my parents wanted good schooling for their kids. So we moved from Safa to a very small town called Johanna, but it’s not the same Jana but that is in Bihar, this one is in up near Kanpur, I spent a few years in Johannesburg. And then in sixth standard, I came to campus, started staying in boardings, and when my younger brother siblings grew older, and then my parents also moved to Concord, so from six to 12, I was in Concord,

then I prepared for j when I was in 12th. Standard. That was another hustle. Maybe you can see the link of my YouTube video on that. Oh, no, no, no, no, I won’t share we really want to know yet. So I know it. But guys, I want you to talk about it. That, yes. What happened in the past? How did you come to know about it? And second, how did you really prepare for it? So I mean, it’s an interesting journey. I don’t usually talk about it, but I’ll mention some details. So when I was in sixth standard, I mean, I was preparing for the boarding school to there was an entrance exam. And I came to Calgary I stayed at school overnight for the next day’s exam. And on the morning that school campus was facing the campus of another engineering college called hpdi. Harcourt Butler Institute of Technology Technology Institute so and at that point in time my cousin was staying in sbti, my boss’s son, and his elder brother was

in Ames and the

He was like studying for so many years but not yet became a professional and younger brother like studied for four years and started early. So I said was Dr. Naval or wartime engineer or doctor though even though I thought okay let’s go for engineering and that was when I decided that I will become an engineer. So that was not that whether I will go for it or not. But yeah, that thought came in my mind and then obviously, we forgot about it we started I started living in Austin got to know a lot of friends made Nick made a lot of friends, starting I used to cry also missing my own, but as in around 11 standard, some friends, he started talking about the preparation for J. So I said, What a J, then I started hanging out with these kids. Okay, you know, better than me, let me understand. And you know, me, I’m an I have a habit of learning from observation. So I used to basically hang around with these kids and understand what they are going through and figure out maybe what j is and then I learned, okay, it is the best place to study Indian engineering.

I went to some coaching classes to check what kind of fee I have to pay, who’s the best teacher and that kind of when you are the usual hustle that you do. And then I asked my father that you give me some money to join the coaching classes to papa said to get money to me. So then I said okay, let me find a way out of it. So, my father suggested to appear for 12 standard, do good in that data ranking board and then prepare for James, I said, Papa, see that my friends are also appearing for j right now, I mean, in along with their tools, and if even a single one of them gets selected, your son will never become an engineer. Because I will not go to any other college other than IIT, and I will not become a junior of my batchmate. So it will be either this will happen never. So I was getting some scholarships, so I had some small money in my bank account. So then I went to coaching, I spoke to few people, few coaching teachers, I mean, obviously, the best ones were not approachable to me. So I picked the ones who were approachable because I understood one thing that all the hassle will be mine, these guys can guide me so it doesn’t matter who the teacher is, it’s the What matters is who the student is. And that student is me so I can make the difference. So I basically found the guys who can teach me for free, or at the least cost. So that was my only criteria. So I found the maths teacher who was an alumnus of my school, I got my maths school teacher to write a recommendation letter for me, went to him presented that letter and he basically took me on board and for no fees. Then I asked him to write a letter to some other colleagues of his while in Canada, you don’t have those Institute’s like, where you can just enroll and they will teach you all you have these individual teachers who run their own coaching centers on like physics, chemistry, maths. So I basically

could not find anyone for chemistry, I found someone for physics who was ready to enroll me for half the his usual fee. So I negotiated for like, 40%, even then half moving into my journey and our company. So for him, I paid from my scholarship money. And then for chemistry, I didn’t have any good teacher and who I was like, as approachable to me. And then pre happened chemistry. I didn’t do that well. So I said, Okay, maybe I was too arrogant to leave chemistry out. Let me find someone who can guide me there. Also, I found a teacher, his name was punker gravano. He was supposedly the best teacher in chemistry and Khan for having like, full classes, so 1000s of students attending each of his lectures. So I used to go to his place stand outside and the cycle stand and I couldn’t gather the courage to go up and speak to him. I did that for three days. And for today, I said, Whatever happens, let me approve. Let me go and talk to him. So I went there. There was a guard standing outside his office, he stopped me I said, Okay, I’ll wait here. And then concasseur came up the moment he just I mean, there was a gentleman and with his son sitting in the office already waiting and the moment Funkhouser came, I barged in, I tossed the guard and I buzzed in and I told Sarah, I have got this ranking Prix. And I want to study chemistry with you. And I can guarantee you a ranking means so he said, then what is the problem? enroll yourself. I said, I don’t have money. So I said, Okay, Cousteau picardo. I said Sir Caprica. He said, Okay, okay, pay me 1000 bucks. So I paid in 1000 bucks and I obviously got enrolled myself there and as you know that I got 588 Rankin j and that’s me.

I didn’t have to become a junior of any of my batchmates. In fact, many of my batch mates became my junior later on. So yeah, so that was a fun thing. As long as it was a big learning, going through the hustle on your own, trying to find ways, I mean, I didn’t have my father sitting beside me when talking to punkbuster while the other kid had that privilege, so yeah, so I mean, when you start doing everything on your own, especially hustling like this, it teaches you a lot to do grow a lot more in the very little time. Because you have done things on your own and you’re learning is primary or secondary. It’s not from other experiences. Yeah, it was good. Good experience. And then it you know, already

Yeah, no, but, um, so, so I see this hustle as being a part of the life and that’s where I think hustling is an important part of being an entrepreneur. Yeah, I see that okay, where it comes from, but

still, In brief, how was the it live? What Did it teach you really, so it life. So, you know, our parents keep on telling beta Yellowfin sub t codeine.

Right? So they have this habit of fooling us and telling lies to us without letting us know that there are lies but that was my check out lots of people that are beta graduation combos of people. So when I was like preparing for j my Marcy told me beta j McRae MLF select oh it was such a good

coach take me on

the more you grow the struggles will be more liabilities will be more and these are the four years that now I have left with which I can enjoy. And so I said okay, so I didn’t deliberately choose canprivate but I did want my family members to pass into my room and see what happened during the night before. So I deliberately did not pick IIT Kanpur I chose the IIT Bombay and for many years I kept on answering this question why you pick Bombay and not convert. So, so that was a

toy as I told you, I wanted to enjoy those four years and that’s what I did. And I I had a habit of writing I wanted to be a writer, always I had to I wrote my first play when I was in seventh standard. So I spent time first year was like, okay, clueless to whom rather than by second year I thought, Okay, let me do something in dramatics I became REM psyche of the hostel, wrote many scripts for the trams, one almost all of them, right? Then I became calco one all the character of you also imagine with a year before we were last,

I became the conductor. We were first, like the sorrow Ganguly for our

when it comes to the currency.

And obviously you, I’ll interrupt you there now I remember so yes,

I know you of course. I’ve seen that. Yes, you have been a voracious reader. I have right from first year, I always found you know, reading even random stuff, I should say as I wish

every time I read Cousteau, right? But I see yes, you had bent towards the literature, which was very obvious. So where did you get that story out about literature and, and culture, that side of things. So my sister is a PhD in English literature. She is a PhD on Arthur Miller. And she had a lot of books plays, and I always used to find our books and read them. And even when I was scared, you know, used to read those comic books. And do you get like 25% my perspective, I never had that kind of money. So I would go there try to like sneak from behind to read. And I wanted to add on history and general knowledge were some things which I’ve always was interested in. And I actually did well in history, which not many people can say, because I used to enjoy history. I used to read it like a life story. So even now, when I read I usually prefer historical fiction, because history teaches you a lot. And one thing about history is that it’s always biased, whatever you read, and you have to actually be smart enough or intelligent enough to read they get the right inference. And that is when you don’t need to consume it like a story. You can enjoy it like a story but it’s beyond that you have to put your thoughts behind it, who would have written it how it would have written right. So so for example, like you read about,

Akbar who used to

Most literary people in esport, obviously will be called the Great because the person writing in budgets or writing it was employed, right.

So that’s how it is so so you have to read it with context with.

I mean, people say it’s clear repeats itself, I say doesn’t repeats itself, it is your living history.

Right, five minutes before what we don’t get to this was the history now, also, history should not be ignored. And that’s where I always wanted to

do that. And I always kept on exploring that. And that was fun to do, right. Better than going to labs and

working on late machine. I was a mechanical engineer, by the way. It’s I did not mention it. So.

So it was good that

the good that you mentioned the mechanical engineering particle, my lecture was,

how did a mechanical engineer land up in a bank? How did you really land up your first job? Oh, so my first job was at HDFC Bank. And my first boss was RF con, he is now Chief Digital Officer of npci.

So when I was in it, fourth year, I’m in third year, I did an internship in a Polish company called fourth Marshall. And somehow I did well and they offered me a PPO. And I was like, Okay, so then I don’t need to worry about placements. But I also did never want to do a mechanical engineering job. But I worked there on a boiler right on on the furnace oil every day, you need to like have to spare clothes if you’re working in this

environment. So as I never wanted to go there, but I also didn’t take the placement very seriously. So eventually, and then July, the flood happened. I was stuck in carpool couldn’t come back. And then a couple of our juniors, were doing an internship in HDFC Bank the way and soulmates you might love them.

So, so the way he introduced me to RF because he had figured out that someone recently had written his D. And I went and met RF and it found me smart. And then he basically took me out on smoke. And then he tried to oversell the role to me that we will do this, we will do great work. We are the technology changing, I need an engineer like you, you might be thinking that it’s a bank what an engineer could do. So he basically oversold this to me. And I said, Okay, then I met his boss, he asked me, Do you know how an ATM works? I said, I don’t know. But I can guess. And I guessed our ATM work to like 90% accuracy. And he got very impressed. So I landed the job. And when they asked me for a salary, I said, whatever you pay me doesn’t matter. So I had my first job I like pay to really list for an IT graduate. All my batchmates are really high salaries compared to mine. But the good thing was that I never felt bad about going to office. For almost nine years, I worked there. And it was a five and a half day job on a Saturday morning after partying on a Friday night with my friends. And I used to live in a duplex in Iran. Right. So my house used to be the party place where every Friday night there would be a party and Saturday morning, I would go go to office hungover. And when my boss will ask me, Why are you late today? I will tell him that I was drinking at night.

Sometimes you should lie. Like Okay, no problem.

How would it help. So I never felt bad going to office on a Saturday. And that was the good thing about the job in HDFC Bank. And while either told you my friends were earning more than me, but they would never feel good about going to Office even on a Sunday, on a Monday. Sorry. So so that was the better part and learned a lot, I actually got to do a lot of things because as soon as I joined within six months, ahrefs half to 13 quit.

And then he somehow gave me the responsibility to rebuild the entirety. So I used to hire people to three years senior level to me, and then I used to give them I mean, assignments, I used to basically be their de facto boss per se while I was just 22 year old and I had these 29 year olds reporting to me.

Not formally because they were like manager, Senior Manager, and I was a trainee. But

that obviously increased ahrefs confidence in me. And that also helped me in my confidence building. And I had the habit as I told you, I had the habit of learning from observations. And when I took handover from all these multiple people, I actually got to learn a lot of wider areas of banking. So because otherwise you would at that early stage

Just see one part of it, right? Because most of the large organizations work in silos. But why why why did you do it? Why Why didn’t take the route? wherein Yeah, you are getting paid for what you’re doing? Why not just okay, your status take on? Yeah, let’s figure out you know, how is life and do other things why we’re so keen to work. As I told you my father didn’t have any money and I had two sisters. So one night I when I was in it, I overheard a conversation between my father and man in it, you don’t have the habit of sleeping at night, right? So I could overhear a conversation. So my mother was telling my father that

some some relative was talking about my sister’s marriage. My eldest sister is married. So my father told her what is more important god of education was the sweetest marriage. So he they had to pick one of the two, right, that was the situation. So I obviously had to do a job, I had to take those responsibilities on my shoulders, I wanted to do things, obviously, I had that thing that I want to do something on my own, so that that thing was there always in my mind. And in fact, I attempted once in 2012. Also, I was trying to build a wallet and

pick up grocery pickup service called reimar. So I actually wanted to build these two things badly, I wanted to build a wallet, I couldn’t build it without the money, and I didn’t know where to get the money from. So I started working on dry mud, because which was a instant cash flow kind of business, which will give me cash flow, and then I could have pumped that money to build the wallet. That’s how I was thinking, I didn’t know that there are somebody called VCs who basically get the money to build businesses. I was not that smart then right? I mean, a smart person from the mind perspective, but not of the world. So now. Yeah, so that’s my professional journey, actually, then somehow, coincidentally guided me towards that path where I got to learn more and more about the VC world. Whoa, wait, wait, wait, what what happened? Release? Are you are you unhappy at idsc? As you said earlier, right? Yes, yes. But why did you quit? Ah, so I quit. Because at some point in time, I started getting the feeling that HDFC had become too big an organization to read to handle exceptional people.

In fact, I told this to my boss’s boss, that now you have become a machine and from machine only everage, output comes out.

assembly line can create a Ford it can’t create a Rolls Royce. And so you you don’t know how to handle me. So why should I be stuck with you? And that was the statement I made. And I wrote a funny incident that happened. They basically when you complete five years, they give you a plaque

where it says congratulations for completing five years in HDFC Bank. And my boss’s boss presented it to me. And then he asked me, How does it feel? So I opened the box, and I read congratulations and on top. And I said had it said thank you, it would have felt better.

And he couldn’t

reply to me. He didn’t have any words about it. So I then continue to dissect was this so that the organization is so aerogen, then it sees that the employees sticking to it for five years is an achievement for the employee, not for the organization, but that’s not how a good organization should think, right? I could have gone any day, right? I could have found any other job. It was not an achievement for me to stick to here for five years. So what are you congratulating me for you congratulate yourself, and pratyahara stuck with you. So that was the first moment when I realized, okay, maybe they don’t

deserve me. But I stand there for a longer period. And then at some point, things happened in a major way that I realized that Okay, that’s the

breaking point. And I should maybe move on, because if I stay here, I will become a part of this system. And again, I will become a Ford and I will never be able to become a Rolls Royce. So that was the reason and but whatever time I spend there, it was good learning. And I think I couldn’t have picked a better organization to start my career.

And then you continue to

think you continued with the digital side of things.

On on FinTech, how was that journey? So when I joined, as you see when it was 2005, right, and at that point in time, the innovations in payments were starting to happen. Right. So people were talking about prepaid cards they had started talking about mobile banking. Boss was the ICC was the only bank which was doing POS in any significant way. Credit cards were limited to foreign banks and capital.

of Indian banks direct. So, so lcfc Bank being a new organization, I mean, still new it was compared to others. There were a lot of things that were being done in the culture in HDFC Bank was not where you have to like, it was not a common word. It was not a Lala company, right. It is a very well structured organization. And I got to explore a lot of things. And I had a lot of authority located to me based on prep, maybe what I did in the early months, that gave my bosses the confidence to will allow me to do all those things, but I could explore, I could suggest innovations, I could pick up my own projects, I could do all those kinds of things, which I don’t think any other organization would have allowed me to do at such a young, young age. So I basically did virtual cards, I was the one who launched the two factor authentication that you do today, verified by Visa and MasterCard secure code, the first transaction with two factor authentication in India was done by me.

chip cards, I was the one who launched chip cards in India for HDFC Bank, your debit, credit, and all these prepaid variants. So when adhaar had 50 to 70 lakh enrollments, I had started working on other advanced

concepts. And when npci was building rupay, I used to be in the very room where the brainstorming needs to happen. We along with people, like delivers DSP, OTA, IP, OTA, and your other other banking representatives. So I got to be in the thick of things, which went over at the very center of the innovation that has been happening in this space. And it’s really an exciting journey, because

the work was never monotonous and boring. In fact, at some point in my career, I, one of the bands approached me and they wanted to offer me a role in credit card operate, they were setting up credit cards, and they wanted me to set up the operations for them. And I said I don’t want to do an operations job. So they said okay, is it salary I said, I can offer me a few crores also, but I will never do.

So I told him that I don’t want to do a job, I know what my day would look like, at the morning I should not be too in the in that kind of a job. Because I have seen I had worked very closely with operations, right? I know what happens and because I used to spend so much time with them, I used to actually end up automating most of their work. So their whole task was to come there, click a button, go for a tea come back, download a report, click another button go for I mean, you don’t learn anything right basically is you basically are a robot and that is what now are RPA

So, I never wanted to do that job. So I said even if you offer me two crore, I will not do this job. And by the way, my salary at that point in time was probably 2530 lakhs. So I said total organ each year, that is more important money can’t be the criteria for any work.

So yeah, after the GFC I was in Kota, then geo payments bank got license to I was hired by their core core team members, I was like, I think 10th employee in your payments bank, I was supposed to design their entire consumer banking consumer facing stack for them.

I take that design pattern, things move beyond design till I was there. And that was the reason I moved on. And I like Yamato putignano Allah culture is very different than the culture. I mean, I would like FDF Sega culture I rejected. Imagine if

you could love me for that now, but yeah, so but I didn’t stick around there for long. It was like, almost 18 months I was there. And then the next best thing and then yes, so the coming to the investment side of things.

How did that happen? And why did you Why did you ask for that? So interestingly, in my personal life, also a lot of lot was happening, right? My daughter was just born when I had to resign from reliance without any job in hand. And I started calling people left, right and center because I needed a job or mid aviculture.

So the good thing is, I’m in whatever impression I have made in people’s mind in last so many years, I landed with too many offers. So I had six offers in hand and I had to now then choose which one to pay. So most of the offers were around payment

FinTech I mean, that domain and large organizations, either on the tech side or on the banking side or on the like inter chain side. So those kinds of offers all all around payments, one of the offers are very different, which was from Nana couples family offices to set up an accelerator for FinTech startups. And I said this looks fun, because the payments whatever was happening, I knew most of the things right and I knew where which direction it is going. And vertical growth was something which I had experience for last 10 years and I wanted some horizontal growth right. So this guy had given me an opportunity to go beyond FinTech and then figure out so basically what happened in the beginning of my career right, I did not only know cards, I got to know net banking also, I got to know a lot of other things around payments, because that was a horizontal survey, the base was strong, but then the peak was becoming too

thin. So I thought let me make some horizontal progress here also inland things beyond payment as well. And that is when I joined this accelerator, and met a lot of startups, I met almost 1000 startups actually, in two years I spent I spent invested in eight startups, some of them are doing really well now. So, like one of them was open, which is the largest tube neobank for SMEs today, we were the first institutional investor in open before they had raised some Angel money from their ex bosses.

Then there was another startup which you might know smart coin in the lending space, all friends, so, that was an easy decision, we knew who are helping the affairs and we knew that they are smart people. So, that was the whole thing that went into that decision making.

So yeah, so they did good investments to now folded already six are doing very well one we made an exit also which actually paid for the entire portfolio. So, the whole way this invested around nine corrode, we got 12 corrode from that one exit. So, we exited on a positive note from there.

So, that was the journey on the accelerator side which actually gave me a lot to learn and that is when I got to know whatever lacking in 2012 attend that Okay, now, I know there are people who can invest in my business these are the kinds of cells you have to go through these are the kinds of things the founder has to do is to basically solve some of the problems with the founders also on their product stack mostly how to design things, basically I can protect all my life, right. So I used to help them in terms of product design in terms of the like how to integrate KYC in their product A KYC so I used to meet with them interact very closely with them, some of them were actually operating from the same office. So life everyday affair. So that was a great learning. And that has prepared me for the part I’m playing now.

So yeah, so again, you when when this when when does this trigger really happened when when did you finally realize that okay, this is the time I should start or when did you really decide to take take the plunge? So that’s one and second.

What led to that really so

so I tell you so I had bought a house for my parents.

So everything is related, right? So it’s a one 360 degree analysis is something which I am proud of that I get to look at everything before I take a decision I bought a house where my parents and I had just paid up the entire loan and I was like not free from those liabilities I had no other loans on suffering from financial standpoint that was one trigger Okay. Now I am prepared to take up something which will probably not require a steady stream of money, right steady cash flow, and that is the only positive or doing the job. To be honest, the only thing positive about doing a job is the steady cash flow month on month that you get. There is no other positive somebody you otherwise it’s a lie.

Yeah, so I and things were changing on the other friend also run a couple stars was changing. So the money was drying up. We were not allowed to do any investments. So we used to go to office, spend our day idling, twiddling our thumbs. So that is that gave me a lot of time to rather than twiddling our thumbs, do something creative to it.

Did a proposal for a FinTech startup? Maybe you at some point, I will put that entire note on my blog for somebody FinTech who wants to FinTech startup to build it, but I am no longer going to build it. But Rana Kapoor actually approved 15 crore seed investment in that. And I, in fact, I took only one mail from me and he approved 15 crore for that startup. But when they gave me a deal, I didn’t like the deal. And I said was, this is a liability to me this money, I can’t take it, and then I quit from there. And then I thought I explored other options in that. And then I met a friend of mine, who told me that your FinTech costs are low enough that

you don’t need to the FinTech doesn’t need you. There are too many people in FinTech. Maybe you should build something for whom, if nobody is reading things, right. So that was the trigger point to switch from that FinTech to what I am doing now. And what I’m doing now is much Hey, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, yeah, I’ll come to that. But okay.

But knowing you, I never saw it. Somebody told you that, okay. Maybe you should not look at FinTech do something else. But that something else is

what was going on in your mind? What did you explore? What all Did you look at that? Okay, this can we learn all this? Is the space or this opportunity? What do I do? So I am someone who doesn’t do too much analysis before. I mean, you have to have the broad strokes in front of you. But do much analysis causes paralysis? So, I mean, yeah, because see, that is why I say if you get paid right now, vaccine development, if you don’t give them a dev deadline a scientist whole life is about experimentation, if even leaving, leave him to his own devices, he will do experiment all his life, he will never give you a result.

Because he enjoys doing experiment, right? That is that is his whole fun. At the moment is like the journey is more fun than the destination. So he will never reach a destination, he would theoretically avoid the destination always right. So I deliberately avoid too much analysis going into things I basically observe things around me and I see, okay, maybe this is something that will work. Obviously, I do some bits of research, I it’s not like that I jump into a blind well. But

if you get into too much too much details, then

more, most of the details will slow sway you away from what you want to do rather than push you towards. That’s what it is right? And at least two or two with me, it very rarely happens that more analysis gives you more conviction towards what you are going to do, it effectively reduces your conviction, because you will obviously end up some things which will be negative about what you are planning to do, it will not always be positive. So you keep those negatives in mind, you don’t basically allow it to sway or find a solution for them. I was a part of Business Solutions Group, right? My whole job was finding solutions for 15 years. So I said okay, so I was actually this particular idea. So when I was working on that FinTech, I took up a job as Chief Product officer in pay a B, which is a payment company based out of Kolkata, and parallely, I was working on that concept key. let’s develop that. And I was bouncing it off with my co founder. And he was like your research

project thing. But at that point in time, another friend was working on something. And I thought I told him that why don’t you work on this idea? I actually discussed the suit.

Whatever you say, the original framework with him and I said you build it. I am building FinTech, I have my core strength is there Why don’t you build it because you like this concept? And you would, it would work well with you. It was a junior from it. And then I kept following up with him that what are you doing about it? And then for a couple of months, he didn’t do anything and he stopped answering my calls for somebody. And then I met that friend of ours Nishan you know, actually, so he I told him that he is in investment banking, he keeps on meeting large investors, right. He hands out with people from SoftBank and Tencent in the likes, so I like I was smoking with him I and I told him, these are the two concepts. I am actually now figuring out what to do. So he said FinTech, he was the one who said FinTech metadata, but this is the brilliant idea, the most brilliant idea I’ve ever heard, especially for a country like ours. And then I discussed that with my co founder, who I kept on bouncing multiple ideas for last two years and when I told him this idea

They didn’t think twice. He said, Okay, let’s do it. And for me for it, and you are an entrepreneur all your life, you’re never done a corporate job. So but you would know this better. So the first pitch and entrepreneur makes about his idea is to his co founder. Yep, the first person you convinced after you have convinced yourself with your co founder? Right? Yeah. So that was my first pitch, which was successful, it took me five minutes over a call. So I was like, Okay, now there are two people two is better than one, maybe whenever I’m down and out is there to pull me so it’s important to have a co founder, because you will not all days will not be rosy. So for me, the co founders biggest role is or my, I have a different question. So yes, you press the and he agreed in five minutes. That’s good. But why did you choose him? Really? Why did you choose him that okay, I should pitch to him and then tell the guy that I should get on with me in this in this journey? So to be honest,

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